A Conversation With Cornel West on the West Lawn
Sundial’s Jackson Cheramie spoke with the presidential candidate, activist, and philosophy professor the day the NYPD arrested protestors.
Video: Jonas Du/Columbia Sundial
April 18, 2024, will be a date lodged in the collective consciousness of Columbia University, remembered at the very least for the sheer amount of on-campus chaos that took place as the NYPD arrested over 100 students camping on Butler Lawns. But here, I will not rehash the events of the day. Instead, I wish to add to the record a rare occurrence for the day—a conversation I had with Dr. Cornel West, presidential candidate, activist, and philosophy professor at Union Theological Seminary.
After the police arrested students occupying the East Lawns, a new protest arose on the West Lawns. In a word, the atmosphere was, again, overwhelming. Then, from the center of circularly arranged crowd Dr. West emerged, displaying the eloquence and oratorical prowess he is known for. After our failed attempt at speaking with several other (somewhat rude) protestors, my colleague Jonas Du and I approached Dr. West, and he invited us quite kindly to sit with him and discuss the state of Columbia for Sundial.
The dialogue, mostly in response to his speech to the crowd immediately prior, was broadly focused on the nature of protest during a time of great moral concern. Even in our brief five-minute conversation, he covered much ground, discussing how the “American Empire” was brimming with hypocrisy. He also alluded to a number of great intellectuals for inspiration, drawing upon the traditions of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and former Columbia Professor Edward Said.
The conversation we had while sitting on the periphery of the West Lawns protest, lightly edited for clarity, is as follows:
Jackson: Dr. West, it's really an honor to have you here on campus. With all the protests on campus, we've heard a lot of people liken it to what happened at Columbia in 1968. Do you see any similarities or differences?
Dr. West: Oh, I mean, there are deep similarities in terms of the “American Empire”—the intertwining and enabling of war crimes, in this case, the crime of genocide. But in that case, it was crimes against humanity, war crimes, both of which were beyond language. But the difference is, of course, that the students in the 60s had a much deeper material interest because they could be sent to fight in Vietnam. The students here have to think morally, spiritually, and critically to take a stand, but it's not going to affect them outside of school, though they may get arrested doing it. But here they have to actually have a deeper sense of connection without it being connected to their own self-interest.
Do you think that these types of movements and protests are now more intellectually or, as you said, spiritually inclined?
I would say that they are a result of the veil being ripped off of the American talk about freedom, as we discover deep forms of criminality, deep forms of military cruelty. So in that sense, I think it's always a positive step. As I told the crowd here, if it were a Palestinian occupation of Jews, if it were a Palestinian genocide against Jews, I would be in the same place because it's a moral issue. It’s a spiritual issue. It’s immoral, and it’s ugly.
But unfortunately, I saw my dear sister president the other day in front of Congress. It was a shame. It was just so sad that she had no courage. She couldn't hold up any strong defense of free speech. Strong defense of what it means to have deep disagreements without firing people.
This is what really discourages young people, who see that kind of hypocrisy.
You mentioned President Shafik. Have you been watching the anti-semitism hearings in Congress over the past couple months?
Oh, yeah. Well, I saw parts of it. Of course, she said we want to defend the humanity and dignity of every student: Jewish, Arab, Palestinian, black, white, red, and whatever. There's no doubt about that. But make that the major fundamental priority at a moment when an actual genocide is taking place, and you can't say a word.
I don't think this is Columbia students calling for a genocide of Jews. I don't see them calling for the annihilation of Jews. And if so, they’re gangsters and they’re thugs, but that’s not the issue. The issue is it [genocide] is actually taking place and the administration has investments in it that are not disentangled. They have enabled that, and they can't even raise their voices against the genocide on moral grounds. It undercuts any moral authority they have. And we just have to call it what it is.
So, it’s a moral issue?
Oh, for me it is; I’m a Christian witnessing it. It's always a moral and spiritual issue for me. Absolutely. It has political consequences, but it's a moral and spiritual issue.
Do you think this issue has become too politicized?
Well, yeah, I think at times it can become much more truncated and narrow. So the moral and spiritual dimension drops out, and it’s just power, power, power, power. But that's the difference between Martin Luther King Jr. and Michel Foucault. Foucault’s power. King’s morality. Fascinating clash. You need both.
But you’re more in the camp for focusing on that morality?
Well, I'm both, but I begin with Martin Luther King Junior’s legacy, oh, absolutely. See, that's Rabbi Heschel’s legacy. That’s Edward Said's legacy—and he's secular. It was always a moral issue with Edward. Edward’s my dear brother, I knew him for 30 years. He was a lecturer right in these buildings right around here. It was always a moral issue. Even as a secular person, he moraled me as a Christian.
It was at this point that the crowd’s increasing intensity deterred him from providing what I believe would have been a thrilling interpretation of the late Professor Said’s studies, and we had to part ways with Dr. West.
Certainly that day there was a rushed feeling—one that can only come from sitting in the middle of an active protest that made national headlines. But, within Dr. West’s words in support of the moral cause, something more became quite clear: the impact of the well-spoken and dignified word. Even amidst others’ shouts, Dr. West remained kind and honest, and for a moment we felt alone with him and his thoughts. It felt like a prime example of the kind of productive dialogue Columbia has always claimed to foster, as though we were, at last, fulfilling in some small way the purpose of “these buildings” in the middle of a chaotic and turbulent day. Even with uproar all around us, Dr. West still took the time to ask us our names, shake our hands, and speak with us. That is the mark of speech that matters, that persuades, and that we must strive to emulate.
Mr. Cheramie is a junior studying history at Columbia College and the managing editor of Sundial.